Alessandro Biggi [00:00:00]:

Customer crave simplicity, and that's, like, super, super true. And so before craving a salad, they create simplicity. So it's really key to keep the menu and the experience in store extremely simple and straightforward, as well as the names of the items and the dishes that you sell. Because sometimes you get creative. But if you are, like, in our industry, like, as a fast casual, you're in the convenience business. And so you have to make experience very simple and convenient, and that makes everything else more craveable.

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Angelo Esposito [00:00:30]:

Welcome to Wisking It All with your host, Angelo Esposito, co founder of WISK.ai, a food and beverage intelligence platform. We're going to be interviewing hospitality professionals around the world to really understand how they do what they do. Welcome to another episode of Wisking It All. We're here today with the founder of Avo, Alessandro Biggi. Alessandro, thank you for being here.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:00:59]:

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Angelo.

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Angelo Esposito [00:01:01]:

It's a pleasure. I always like meeting fellow entrepreneurs. One of the things about this show is we interview a lot of restaurant operators, but also tech restaurant companies. And we try to do the best of both worlds and give perspective on both the tech side, but also just on the actual restaurant operator side. So, having said that, easiest place to start is obviously just a quick background on what is avo.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:01:28]:

Yeah, definitely. So Avo is a destination for seasonal, nourishing, and uniquely crafted salads and bowls. We're based in New York City. We have five stores over here. The model is mostly takeout and really focused on the idea of providing a healthy, but really feeling and wholesome meal to help keep people fueled throughout the day.

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Angelo Esposito [00:01:55]:

I love that. And so one of the big things is always understanding the how people got to where they're at and the why behind it. So I'd love to hear a bit about your story. I know you mentioned you were born and raised in Italy, so we don't have to go super far back, but maybe starting from there, right, like, from Italy, you come to the States. What made you come here? And then what did that journey look like?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:02:19]:

Yeah, well, actually came for the first time in 2014 with my first company, which was actually a tech company. So I was living in San Francisco, Silicon Valley, and living the tech startup life. The company I ended up selling that company went back to then, you know, yet again, I went back to Seattle at the point to actually work on an existing business that was in tech and media and sort of, like, working, in a way, restructuring it. And while I was there, I realized how hard it was to find a healthy meal that was also really satisfying, which is something that, in Italy, is super common. In Italy, you eat very healthy with really high quality ingredients. But food is very filling and satisfying. So every meal is an opportunity to celebrate something, in a way. And I felt that that was not the case, at least in Seattle at the time.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:03:23]:

At the same time, there was a place I would go very often, which was a really nice salad bar that I really enjoyed. But then I would end up indulging into cookies or brownies, which defeated completely the purpose of eating a know. And so, based on know, I started making myself more elaborated things that were still healthy by leveraging avocado as the main sort of ingredients, like salads or avatars, and realized that avocados, because they are superfruit and because they are a healthy fat, they have that duality of being super good for you, but also being feeling satisfying. So that sort of triggers something. And I shared the idea of creating a concept around healthy know to my current business partner, Francesco, who's one of my best friends from college in Milan. And so together we decided know explore the idea of building a restaurant together. So we started then coming to New York and found ultimately our first location, which is actually where I'm right now, in Brooklyn, Sunset park, and then from there. So we kept developing the business and the concept.

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Angelo Esposito [00:04:32]:

That's awesome. It's funny you mentioned it because it's so relatable, the story you said of just, like, finding something that's filling and healthy, because I've gone through that too. Especially finding things that are healthy, but exact same scenario, like you end up eating that salad or whatever, but then five minutes later, I'm eating cookies because I'm hungry.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:04:56]:

Exactly. What's the point of eating a salad and then you end up eating something that is ten times worse for you than another filling meal.

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Angelo Esposito [00:05:05]:

Yeah, it's super interesting. I'd love to know, when was the first restaurant founded so, New York. I know you said you're at the current location you're at was the first one. What year was that?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:05:14]:

Yeah, so we opened the first one in mid 17. Okay. And the restaurant started as a pop up initially because neither Francesco nor I had any experience in hospitality. So we wanted to try and test and see if there was actually any interest, any demand around the type of food that we wanted to make. And then, thankfully, we realized that there was a lot of demand for that. And so we had a great response. The restaurant opened really strong. And so in the first year, we opened the second location in West Chelsea, close to us yards, and then we opened the third one later on because obviously the pandemic delayed a little bit all the expansion plans that we had.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:06:02]:

But, yeah, now we are at five units. We recently opened the fifth one in January this year.

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Angelo Esposito [00:06:07]:

Wow, that's awesome. And then I commend you for taking some big risks, because, I mean, starting any company, and, I mean, it sounds like you started one, like you said, in Silicon Valley, but starting any company is hard, but starting a restaurant concept is, I feel like, even harder. Right. Because there's so many other layers to it and jumping into that with no prior experience. So how was that like? What were some of the. Because we have a lot of restaurant listeners. So I'd love to maybe share some of your early experiences from someone who wasn't in the industry. Then you start your first location.

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Angelo Esposito [00:06:40]:

I mean, you were smart enough to do a pop up first and gather data, but once you started your first location, what were some learnings that you recall that maybe you can share with our audience?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:06:50]:

I feel like restaurants are simple but not easy, meaning that there's nothing particularly hard, except that it's a sum of a lot of little details that could go wrong or go well. And so I think having that ability to really analyze and divide each little element and try to solve for each of that really helps in creating a concept that then ultimately works altogether in increasing manner. I think for us, because we were a little naive to say it in a good way or ignorant to say in another way, we did things that right now we wouldn't do, but that allowed us to start and achieve a good success in the beginning. I would say very often with restaurants, you can take a little bit of risk because every day is a new day, in a way, and you can always keep developing on that, and people will still eat. So you can try to take a little bit of risk and see what works, what not. The key thing, which I think applies to any type of venture, is really to listen to your guests, listen to your users or your customers, and understand. When we initially opened, Avo was actually avocaderia, and back then, we were more of an avocado bar. So we were serving avocado toast, more like avocado centric dishes that were a little more creative.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:08:18]:

And then over time, we evolved by seeing what people actually wanted and what they called for. What they wanted was the salads and the bowls, and that would leverage these healthy fats to be more nutritious and feeling for them. So that's how we kept evolving the menu, in a way, and we gently developed full on into a bowl type of destination, which is the model that we're now full on committed to because we see that is what people want, and it's what driving the habit. So for people to see us not as a one off experience, but really as that recurrent experience that happens, like, once a week, twice a week or.

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Angelo Esposito [00:09:03]:

So and so forth, that makes sense, because I think that's very well said. But my question is, how do you balance, let's say, sticking to your vision, but that fine line of just not being stubborn and listening to your guests? Because I agree with you 100%. Like, you got to listen to what the people want, but at the same time, it's like balancing your vision. So at that time, now you look back and you made that decision, and it's obviously for the better. You had five locations. But at that time, when you're like, okay, I think this is what the people want. This is what I'm hearing. How do you take that leap while also being like, wait, this was our original vision? Because I think that's something a lot of restaurants struggle with.

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Angelo Esposito [00:09:40]:

Sometimes they're a little too stubborn with their original vision that they don't move at all. So I'd love for you to maybe expand on that a little.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:09:47]:

The key really relies on two key things, on two main things. One is the ability to think long term, which is like, yes, you have a vision, but what's the endpoint? For us? It's always been wanting to be a place for an everyday experience. We wanted to have a positive impact on people's habits and diets. It was not about the experiential element in the initial version of our concept. It was more like, I want to make something for every day. And so that really sort of was one of the key drivers. And whenever you think long term, any small change that you have along the way become really tiny. Ultimately, it's like, you know where you're going, what the North Star is, and so you're able to move a little bit.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:10:36]:

So sometimes you make the way a little longer, but you're still going to go there.

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Angelo Esposito [00:10:40]:

That makes sense.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:10:41]:

And then the second element is, in a way of, say, the core values, like knowing what's the foundation of what you're building and ensure that any decision or any modification of what your project is still maintains the key values that you believe in, because those remain the best framework for you to decide whether it makes sense to make certain decision or not.

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Angelo Esposito [00:11:06]:

Right. And for people listening, what are some maybe, like, key dishes? I'm sure they could check out your menu. And actually, I'd love for you to plug your website. So for people who do want to check out your website, check out your menu. Where can they find all this information?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:11:20]:

Absolutely. So if you go on orderavo.com, you can browse the website and check out the menu and so on. We have three salads, three bowls, three specials, four smoothies, some sides, and then avocado toast and some breakfast buns. So the menu, it's small, but there's a little bit of diversity in it. The all time favorite is the spicy chicken bowl, which is rice, spinach, habanero, hot sauce, pico de gallo, obviously chicken and carrots and cabbage, and a little bit of tortilla chips on top, obviously with an avocado laid down. So to make things a little more filling. Yeah, that's one of the best.

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Angelo Esposito [00:12:08]:

What's one of your favorites?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:12:10]:

My favorite one is called Portobello Road. It's also a bowl and it has hummus, mushroom, rice, kale, chicken, chipotle mayo, and then cashew parmesan on top of the avocado. And it's really good because I love the humami, and the hummus combination is really good.

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Angelo Esposito [00:12:28]:

That sounds awesome. It's funny because I'm used to going to, when I go to quick service locations, I'm used to avocado also. I love avocado, but it's always the extra cost. It's always extra. So it's funny that for you guys, it's a central point. And I know you touched on the difference in ingredients, generally speaking, in Italy versus the US, I can attest that, too. It's like eating in Italy, you eat well, high quality ingredients, you feel full. Why do you think that is? What do you think is that shift that? Why are things so different? Let's say in Italy, you eat really well, and I'd love to hear from your point of view, why do you think there's such a gap there?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:13:09]:

Yeah, I think it's scale, it's culture, obviously, given the size of the US, obviously the way produce has been treated, or just produce, but any vegetable or even proteins, obviously, it's a big issue. It's very different. Just because there's so much consumption and so much demand that needs to be satisfied. It obviously has a big impact on how things need to be done to accomplish and fulfill that demand. And I think in Italy, obviously, being a small market with a lot of different, also micro climates within the region allows for different type of smaller cultivations that allow for the quality of ingredients. And then I think it's also cultural like, in a way. Here has been, unfortunately, there is not enough food culture. It's obviously developing and it depends also on different regions and so on.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:14:16]:

Obviously, New York has a pretty sophisticated population as well as many other cities. But then there are areas in which, unfortunately, and that's where I think something like what we are doing is extremely important, that grows and would reach those communities because there are some food deserts where honestly, the only thing you can find is the super processed, like foods and fast foods and so on. Exactly. And I think, obviously, this is really hard to change. If you think just about on the economics of things like a salad obviously cannot cost less than 13, $15. While obviously a very low quality, let's say ultra processed, like burger or fried chicken and so on, might go as low as six, $5, something like that. So it's really hard to change this. In a way, I wish there were more incentives for people to eat healthy, because ultimately that contributes to make better communities overall.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:15:22]:

I think if people feel better, they make better communities. So it's all connected.

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Angelo Esposito [00:15:28]:

Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I'd love to hear what's the vision for Avo right so far? I think obviously, from no experience in hospitality to opening your first store and then now having five locations, what do you see happening in the next, I don't know, maybe year or two years. What's next for Avo?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:15:50]:

I mean, the good thing is that we are in the right side of the market. I think there's been a lot of healthy concepts that have been sort of growing, and the demand is definitely going up across the board for us in particular, I think while at the beginning we were extremely pumped and thinking, all right, we can open everywhere in the US, we're going to go to LA, then we're going to go to Texas and so on and so forth, then realized how actually complex it is to operate restaurants, even on a very small scale. And so I think right now, the plan for us is really to remain focused on the New York market, maybe trying to keep expanding in areas that are around here. So if it's not New York City, maybe Jersey City, maybe Connecticut, or maybe even explore, like venture out to Boston, if really we're brave enough. But I would say the plan is to keep growing and try to reach as soon as we can, like the ten unit sort of mark, and then see how things continue to develop. One thing obviously, that we're seeing already, now that we opened this 50 location, is that the more units we're able to get, the higher the brand awareness and so the more positive results as a company, we're able to get. And also, I think it becomes also easier to attract more and more talent and people and so on. So there's a lot of benefits in maintaining the focus on a specific area and being very local and grow out of that.

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Angelo Esposito [00:17:16]:

Makes sense. And one of the things that Wisc does is we help restaurants of all sizes, but we really help them with all what we call the boring stuff, but the stuff that's necessary, right? Stuff that maybe you didn't think of day one, but then you open the restaurant, you're like, oh, man, I got to keep track of inventory, and I got to figure out my orders from my suppliers, and I don't want to over order because the food waste and spoilage and my recipe costs, and with all the produce changing prices, you got to make sure you're making the same margin. So you got to adjust the prices, then put it in the menu. So we help with a lot of that. But I'd love to hear a bit about some of those challenges, because restaurants always talk about maybe the front side, so marketing and getting more people in, but I'd love to hear a bit about the backhouse. From your point of view, what are some challenges that maybe you faced in the beginning and now hopefully you have more under control, but from inventory side or ordering or anything on the backhouse side?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:18:10]:

Definitely. I would say, thankfully, not having the hospitality background in a way helped us because we were very tech driven from the beginning. So we're able to really think about things like from a tech, is there a tech solution first and then how we're going to implement it? In a way. And also, we both come from also like a finance background as well. So numbers is something that we've been able to really understand and get in depth from the beginning because ultra numbers drive everything, every decision in the business, from recipe costing to inventory management, portion controls, and also, obviously, all the food safety elements. This has been always like a priority for us. We've been using a lot of different checklists for our team to be able to execute on following specific process and standards. Obviously, we use all labeling apps to ensure that safety.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:19:15]:

We have sensors across the restaurants. We use a software that integrates directly with the POS to scan the invoices and ensure that we're able to reconcile whatever we purchase with what else has been sold in a way to try to keep those processes optimized and automated as much as possible. It's not always possible, fortunately. But I would say in general, most things sort of revolve around the POS, which is obviously the core of the restaurant and core of the business.

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Angelo Esposito [00:19:51]:

That makes sense. And it's funny how you mentioned your lack of restaurant experience almost helped because it's one of the things I see all too often. Obviously, there's amazing restaurant operators out there, but one of the things we see often is they're focused on the physical side of just which is important, but hiring staff and just serving and all that side of things. But they kind of lack that maybe more financial side or the number of customers or the number of clients we deal with where they don't have a proper PNL. They really got to fight to get an accurate PNL at the end of every month. And it's something that I think coming from the tech world or other industries, you kind of take for granted and you realize it's not all too common in the restaurant space. And so I'd love to hear maybe that side of things. How do you go about, let's say, in the early days thinking about your financials, your forecasting, your PNL? Right.

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Angelo Esposito [00:20:51]:

Because when you're starting from nothing, it's hard to kind of figure out these projections. I'd love to hear about how you thought about that.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:20:57]:

Yeah, I mean, honestly, it was a lot of trial and error in terms of forecasting and budgeting and also, again, learning what the business needed. When we first started, we learned things by asking other people that were in the industry and then obviously having our own experience in other companies and other industries. Initially, my co founder, Francesco, is the one, sort of didn't do bookkeeping because we had a bookkeeper, but he was always reviewing the numbers. And it's still to this day, sort of the liaison between the company and our accounting firm that we work with. We have an internal reporting that we do every Thursday for the week before, in which we sit down with our GMs and sort of review the numbers and so on. And that's something that we've had since the beginning. Like, we've had that and the cash flow management from the beginning, because cash flow is another thing that you always have to keep top of mind. I would say it's been a lot about really keeping that extra layer of control.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:22:02]:

And I agree with you, sometimes it doesn't feel, like, important, but instead it's actually really crucial, because if you have control of the numbers, then all other decisions sort of will be influenced by the numbers that you're able to see. In terms of forecasting, we had to learn how to make them. Obviously, when you have no historical data, it's really hard to play around it. But you maybe talk to your neighbors, understand how much they're making. What affects potential sales? Is there an event, is the weather today, the day after Super bowl that we're recording this? Basically there's like a thing called the Super bowl flu. So the day after the Super bowl, over 60 million people don't go to work. Exactly. In days like today for us, which we're very much driven by the business launch, we see a drop in sales.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:23:01]:

So there's something to be expected. And these are things that even if you have the best forecasting tool, it's really hard to predict. You just have to really think through and discuss.

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Angelo Esposito [00:23:11]:

Yeah, experience it. Now that makes sense. And then for people listening, I think one of the things that's always interesting is any nuggets, not only on the mistakes made, but maybe things that have worked. Anything you can share, you shared, like the pivoting part, which I love that don't be scared to pivot. Being financially driven, I think that's another good nugget. Like know your numbers, cash flow management, anything on maybe more of the marketing side or like opening new stores or maybe getting more sales or branding. Anything on maybe the flip side of the costing side that you can maybe share things that you think of and things that have helped you along the way that could potentially help some of our restaurant.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:23:53]:

I mean, there's many, many learnings. I think one sentence that I loved actually heard that in a podcast. I think it was the former CEO of T Mobile, or sorry, of Sprint, maybe, I don't remember anyway, but the sentence was, customer crave simplicity, and that's like super true. And so before craving a salad, they create simplicity. So it's really key to keep the menu and the experience in store extremely simple and straightforward, as well as the names of the items and the dishes that you sell. Because sometimes you get creative. But if you are like in our industry, like as a fast casual, you're in the convenience business, and so you have to make experience very simple and convenient, and that makes everything else more cravable. So that's one thing I think the point is to really invest and keep building the internal culture.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:24:53]:

That's extremely important. We've invested a lot in team meetings, in team outings, in benefits, we offer PTO to our employees. We have a very clear career path. When they get to one year anniversary, we give them one day at the spa, they get birthday cakes and things like that. And obviously we invest a lot on the training side as well. We use a really cool app called Opus and that helps us deliver this micro learnings and get everybody more aligned.

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Angelo Esposito [00:25:33]:

In terms of opis training. Right? Yeah, we had Rachel on the show. She was awesome, the CEO. Really cool.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:25:41]:

Very nice product. Yes, it's a great product. Yeah, for sure. But training is like, it's extremely important to set expectations clear. And through Opus we're able to also understand at what level everybody sort of got. In a way, then obviously you have to see also the performance in store. But if you know that someone doesn't not do something correctly, you have to check did they do the training? And you can check it right away on Opus and so on. But yeah, so that and a lot of other elements on the training side, on the people side are really crucial for the ultimate success of the business.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:26:16]:

Because I would say in the last couple of years, the biggest achievement we got was the promotion of two people that were started with us as team members and became general manager. And that created a really positive cycle within all the team members. Now see them as an example and say, okay, I can also become a leader in the company.

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Angelo Esposito [00:26:41]:

That's really interesting because, yeah, one of the biggest issues, I mean, there's a lot of issues in restaurants. One of them is supplier costs of goods, I guess, keep rising. But another big one is labor. Not only labor costs, but just finding labor. And it's kind of a revolving door sometimes. So it's tough because you train someone up and then three months later they quit, and now you're back to square one. And so that revolving door is a tough problem to solve, but it sounds like you have that somewhat under control. And I think a big part of that for people listening is creating that internal culture.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:27:14]:

I don't want to jinx it now because then, so far so good. Honestly, we're happy. We have a really strong core team now we have about 55 employees. The great majority of them have been with us for a long time. Lately we've been celebrating anniversaries more and more.

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Angelo Esposito [00:27:40]:

Amazing.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:27:41]:

And yes, it's not easy. In the first few years it was a revolving door, and then we really made the switch and started investing a lot more in culture and those benefits in the PTO, in providing a really good, welcoming work environment, ensuring that the training was up to standard so that people would feel empowered. And so that's been really helpful. And I think now the focus for us is more on creating that bench of new leaders so that as we open new stores, we're able to provide that opportunity to keep going up and showing even more positive examples.

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Angelo Esposito [00:28:22]:

I love that. I got one or two more for you. One question I guess comes to mind is what do you guys look for when opening a new location? I know you kind of touched on it a bit about trying to stay a bit more local because you see those positive effects of brand recognition and things like that. But what kind of areas you look for and what are some criteria you look for when opening a new spot?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:28:43]:

I would say real estate in New York is probably the biggest challenge that we've seen in the past six years. It's a terrible market, so it's just very hard. So now I think we have a certain checklist in a way of whenever we see location, it's like, is our target demographic over there? And you need to have very clear who your target is, because at first we were like, okay, we'll see. We open, and then people will come. It's not true. You have to know exactly who are the people that you're trying to go for. And it's not always easy to understand if they are actually there, and so on. But what we've seen, for example, is that we have a lot of success in really high, dense business areas because lunch is the main segment for us.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:29:32]:

And so we're opening where there's a lot of offices. Second one is, are there your competitors? Is that a destination already for other concepts that offer similar experience? Because ultimately you want to be as close as possible to both your competitors and to concepts that are complementary to yours. For example, if there's a cava, which is complementary to us, in a way, we'd love to be there because we know that we have the same type of customer audience, like guest audience, but we offer a different thing still in the same space. Those are other elements that we look into. And then obviously the size need to be the right fit for us. Well, rent comes with no explanation, but it's obviously like a big thing. One thing that we've done moving up to the fifth location is that we've been gradually taking on a little more risk. So instead of saying day one, we can take on a location that costs like fifteen, twenty K a month.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:30:37]:

We started with, let's say, $1,500 a month in rent and then went up to the second one was a little more expensive, third one was more expensive, and so on and so forth, so that we could prove the model and see actually where we could get that makes sense.

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Angelo Esposito [00:30:51]:

I love that. And then just to wrap up for anyone maybe dreaming of starting their own food venture, any advice or you want to just give them? I know you gave a bunch of interesting advice today, but anything you want to leave them with?

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Alessandro Biggi [00:31:05]:

I think maybe there's a big false myth that I thought was true as well. At the beginning was like, you want to start with a small space, with a small team, and keep things, like, as simple and streamlined as possible. You think that in a small environment, that's better. It's not true. The reality is that if your concept allows you to have enough guest and traffic to sustain a bigger structure, the bigger structure is actually better because you put the same amount of work in opening a location that makes, like, half a million a year. It's the same work as doing a location that makes 2 million a year. And actually, you have a lot more headaches in the smaller space, because if you only have three or four people working there, if you have a call out, let's say, then it means that 32% of your stuff is out, so you have to jump in and cover. If you have a location where you have ten employees and one call out is, like, 10% of your stuff is out, so you still find a way to redeploy, redeploy people and cover up.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:32:11]:

So what I'm trying to say is I try to make something that appeal to enough people so that you could build on a bigger scale rather than on a smaller scale.

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Angelo Esposito [00:32:20]:

That's good. That's a good piece of advice. I know I said, last but not least, but sorry. I always love to end with just all the socials and where people can find you. So just, if you want to plug website, your Instagram, whatever channels you want, love for you to share it so people can find you.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:32:34]:

Absolutely. Yeah, sure. I mean, you can connect with me on LinkedIn personally or with the company as well. I don't have a personal website, but you can go on orderavo.com as well as avocadria. It's all on Instagram. And TikTok is order Avo as well.

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Angelo Esposito [00:32:51]:

Okay. Amazing. So you heard it there. Once again, we're here with Alessandro BG, the founder of Avo, five locations in New York area. So I love the concept. I love hearing about your journey. Thanks for being on the show today. Thanks for being on the Wisking It All podcast.

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Alessandro Biggi [00:33:08]:

Thank you. Thank you so much.

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Angelo Esposito [00:33:10]:

Feel free to check out Wisp AI for more resources and schedule a demo with one of our product specialists to see if it's a fit for.

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