Steve Fortunato [00:00:00]:

I didn't go up on a mountain and get a download. I was living it. I was trying to do two things at the same time. I was in a business of trying to make people feel valued, but I was in LA and I wanted my business to be the cutting edge business. Like I wanted to feel valued. And that's when I was like, oh, you can't give value and get value at the same time.

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Angelo Esposito [00:00:32]:

Welcome to another episode of WISKing It All. We're joined today by Steve Fortunato, founder and CEO of Roomforty and the fake House. Steve, thanks for joining us.

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Angelo Esposito [00:00:45]:

Thanks for having us here today, man. Appreciate it.

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Steve Fortunato [00:00:48]:

Yeah, I'm excited. I know you have a ton of experience, put it lightly in the hospitality space. You're also keynote speaker, you know, also author of the Urgent Recovery of Hospitality. So we'll get into all that, but I always like to understand, you know, how people got into the hospitality space. Right. It's, it's, it's always a fascinating thing. And I know from my notes that I think you started as young as a 15 year old busboy. So I'd love to hear kind of your, your.

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Angelo Esposito [00:01:14]:

Absolutely. Thank you so much for creating space for the conversation. Yeah, I would say my introduction to hospitality was in my home. I, I grew up in a hosting home and I kind of took a lot of hosting reflexes for granted. It was just sort of the way that we behaved at the table. It was the environment that we had. I grew up in a home that if we were having a fancy meal or if we were having a casual meal, it didn't really matter if we were having barbecue. We didn't put ketchup on the table.

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Angelo Esposito [00:02:14]:

We put ketchup in a ramekin on a saucer with a demi spoon and then the ketchup went on the table. And we had guests in our home. But norms and expectations around like table etiquette applied whether or not we were hosting or if it was just my family. And so when I became a teenager and wanted some cash for running around, I called a restaurant that we went to most Friday nights and the manager, Tom, you know, was like, he treated us well because we were regulars. And I was, was like, I'm actually, you know, not calling on behalf of my parents for a reservation, I'm calling on behalf of myself for a job. And he gave me a job. And as a 15 year old, he was really thrown off at like how this 15 year old teenager like, knew table etiquette, knew things like open stance, knew how to like pour water and not spill it and knew how to clear tables and was just sort of thoughtful and attuned to EQ around a table. You know, that that wasn't normative behavior for most 15 year old, 15 year olds in Santa Cruz.

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Angelo Esposito [00:03:27]:

And so I think seeing his response to me and him being so sort of caught off guard at my skill and my reflexes and my instincts, I was kind of like, oh, well, I guess I'm, I guess I'm good at this. But I took it for granted. I didn't think it was anything special. I was just acting the way I acted around the table at our house. And yeah, Angelo, that was. I'm gonna age myself, man. But that was 35 years ago. I just turned 50.

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Angelo Esposito [00:03:59]:

So that was 35 years ago. And I really, up until.

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Steve Fortunato [00:04:07]:

20 years ago, when I started my company, up until 18 years ago, was using definitely.

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Angelo Esposito [00:04:14]:

Going the industry and my familiarity with the industry as it means pay my bills. But it wasn't what early experiences. I didn't think that was going to be the trajectory. And then I had a really kind of foundational paradigm shift and realized I think I'm going to, I think I'm going to die a hospitalitarian, as Danny Meyer would say. So yeah, I don't think that we can get to where we're going by focusing on where we don't want to go. Right. Like, if you're like, hey, how do I get to Oregon? And I start going on and on and on about how you don't want to go to, you know, Alaska, it's like, great, but tell me, how do I get to Oregon? So I don't want to. I don't think you build an anti is basically what I'm saying.

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Angelo Esposito [00:05:23]:

So there's not. I don't want to focus too much on what I was shown that I didn't want to emulate, but I do think that that's important to at least reference. Here's some things I was shown that I was like, wait a minute, I don't know if that's the way that I want to do it because it's ultimately become formative to. It's a big part of like what I stand for and what I think I'll start with what I was shown. I was shown etiquette. I was shown how details matter. I was shown at an early age that the experience that people feel at the table is the sum total of all of these little details and that you can put thought and intentionality into the smallest of Details. I reference barbecue because that's, you know, we don't think of, like, barbecue on a back deck as, like, fancy.

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Angelo Esposito [00:06:15]:

But like, I grew up with little. These little corn dishes that were like, in the shape of an ear of corn that, like, you would plop the corn ear in the ear of corn shaped dish, if that makes any sense. So I saw early on that attention to detail can be leveraged in a way that people feel like, ooh, wow, this is kind of special. It can absolutely be leveraged in such a way that it feels tense and particular and anxious. Or attention to detail can make people feel thought of and that this is something special. I think the thing I was shown to go back to what I said earlier, the thing that I was shown is that conversation around what is being served really leaves people still hungry for more. If I make a meal for you, Angelo, and all we are talking about is the braise of the short rib, and then you're like, man, was this. Do you put burgundy in this bordelaise? And I'm like, no, actually, Angelo, I brewed Earl Grey tea and I infused the Bordeaux and that's all we're talking about.

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Angelo Esposito [00:07:34]:

That's a really boring conversation. And the connection that you and I have is going to be really limited by like, let's get your phone out and take a picture of what's on the plate and let's talk about the foam. The foam and the braise or the ear of corn dish. All of those details, they are meant to serve a moment that you and I are having. And I think that was one of the things that I learned.

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Steve Fortunato [00:08:02]:

And it's funny because, like, it's something that I know you're passionate about. It was actually my notes of human connection. I know you emphasize that a lot. Know really how to as a driving force. And so I wonder, like, take the.

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Angelo Esposito [00:08:16]:

Path of least resistance.

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Steve Fortunato [00:08:17]:

Where does. Where do you think that. I mean, I love it. I'm all about human connection. But from your point of view, where does.

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Angelo Esposito [00:08:22]:

Where did that come from?

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Steve Fortunato [00:08:23]:

Where did I concept for you? Action. Really kind of. I did, which I love.

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Angelo Esposito [00:08:28]:

But I'm curious, does that make any sense?

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Steve Fortunato [00:08:55]:

Interesting, man.

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Angelo Esposito [00:09:02]:

That's an interesting question. Maybe it comes from craving it and not having it. I was a really bullied, excluded kid. I didn't really have any friends growing up. Yeah, I just. I just had a very extended season of time of being outcast and lacking human connection. And I think when. When you long for something that you lack, you really appreciate it when it comes I mean, imagine that first drink of water after you've just been parched.

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Angelo Esposito [00:09:40]:

That's when you realize the value of water, you know? That's when you understand. My God, it feels so good to have my thirst quenched. And I think as I started experiencing human connection, as I got older and I tasted what I had been missing, I was like this. This. This is the juice. Fancy meals can come and go, but like this, the way that like this just feels sparkly. It feels crackly. Like, I feel like I get you, and I feel like you get me, and we're just like, we're spinning in this cool riff, you know? And I think probably that's what became me, a connection junkie, you know, Like, I really see myself not even as a moment junkie, you know, Like, I tell my staff that essentially, we are moment makers.

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Angelo Esposito [00:10:40]:

We're engineers, architects, right? Like we are in the catering world. You are always servicing people on the most important day of the year or of their lives. You know, restaurants are different in that it's just Friday night and you want it to be epic, but it's just Friday. And if it sucked, I'm so sorry, that sucked. Next Friday is on me. You can't say, I'm so sorry your wedding reception sucked. Your next wedding reception, we're gonna kill it, you know, so we coach and we teach that we are moment architects, that we're moment engineers. But moments can be.

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Angelo Esposito [00:11:24]:

They can fade. But human connection, when you have, like, sensory recall, you can remember a conversation that you had five years ago.

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Steve Fortunato [00:11:33]:

Yeah, no, it makes a ton of sense. It's funny.

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Angelo Esposito [00:11:35]:

Powerful conversation station in the restaurant world.

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Steve Fortunato [00:11:37]:

And I want to hear your parallel in the restaurant world. And I've heard this term before, I like to use two moments of truth. And the idea is, like, you have all these moments, you know, I don't know. Let's say you're a full service restaurant. It could start from your parking situation or valet to whatever greeted at the door. They bring water right away. Did you have to wait for the bill really long? But what's crazy is, like, there's so many moments of truth that have to go right? And sometimes if you get like 30 of them. Right.

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Steve Fortunato [00:12:05]:

But like, too wrong. People as humans always remember the ones that were wrong. So like, ah, man, that parking was such a. Or whatever it is, right? Like, they, they'll sometimes remember, like the. The negative moments of truth. And I wonder, like, for you. Yeah, please do. Yeah.

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Angelo Esposito [00:12:47]:

Can I, can I jump in? Okay, you just referenced, like 30 moments of truth. Recall the last time.

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Steve Fortunato [00:12:59]:

No.

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Angelo Esposito [00:12:59]:

You went to a buddy's house or the home of someone who cared for you or loved you, or there would have been almost an equal amount of those moments. Right. However, if someone was in the spot where you thought you were gonna park, did you then arrive at your buddy's house who had prepared a nice meal for you, disgruntled and pissed and thinking, what the hell? Like, my parking spot is taken? No. So I think what. I think what I am passionate about is changing that energy where, you know, when you say there's all these moments of truth and you can miss one, and I think that that is pitting creator against consumer. It is pitting host against guest. And I think that that has a lot to do with what's gotten in the water of hospitality. And so we are coming, going.

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Angelo Esposito [00:14:07]:

All right, I've got my 30 things. Nope. Valet was off. And I think that is what happens where. When in our. In this container that's meant to be generous, and it's meant to be about, like, I'm good. Like, I have enough. So I don't need you to take a picture of what I'm offering you.

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Angelo Esposito [00:14:27]:

I don't need to sign anything that has my picture on it. I don't need anything from you. I'm not trying to get anything from you. I want to give you something, Angelo. I just. I just want to bless you. I just want to make you a meal. When we need.

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Angelo Esposito [00:14:42]:

For lack of a better term, when we, like, knead. Taking into the dough of this interaction, then everybody's taken. You're taking notes on the parking, and if it met your expectation, and I'm taking notes on. Did you validate me and did you Were. Did you leave a review and did you make me feel like I'm like. And so I'm sorry to have jumped in, but I think that. I think that. That.

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Steve Fortunato [00:15:05]:

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah. From my perspective, I was thinking more along the lines of like. Like, almost like, empathy to hospitality professionals. Like how, like, obviously you don't want a client, that one thing is off and everything's off. So that's a fair. You're saying. But generally how, like, so many things have to go right, and not everything's fully in your control.

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Steve Fortunato [00:15:25]:

Like, 28 run out of something. Chef doesn't show up. Like, you know, so many things could go wrong that it's like. It's almost magical. Like. Like, I'm saying it almost in a positive way. It's impressive. What Hospitality professionals can do because so many things have to go right generally seeing.

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Steve Fortunato [00:15:39]:

But I'd love to know, like on the catering side, because like you said, it's a lot of pressure. It's someone's wedding day. And, and how do you think about that side of things? I like the place you're going. It's kind of like the energy, the vibe is there. But what are some maybe tactics or things that you think through? Again, I'm thinking of our listeners that are probably gained so much knowledge from you. Any advice you can give them around, hey, you got these really important events, and for people it might be once in a lifetime or a big event. How do you think through? Or any tips around trying to make it as special as possible, you know? Yeah, got it. Okay.

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Angelo Esposito [00:16:43]:

Yeah. Well, there's actually a clear framework that we teach. It's like a four part framework. The first thing we do when we're giving tips, we're saying, okay, we want to make this couple feel really special. How can we do that? Well, the first thing we say is speak the good. You know, like words matter. Start calling out the good.

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Steve Fortunato [00:17:05]:

Okay?

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Angelo Esposito [00:17:06]:

You can't make other people feel at home if you're not at home within yourself. So you gotta call out the good in yourself. Because if you're like criticizing yourself and you're saying like, you suck and then your client shows up, you're not gonna be able to authentically make them feel at home. Cause you're not comfortable in your own skin, right? A great host is comfortable in their own skin. They're at home with themselves and they're like, hey, look at. You know. And then I think the same thing with your clients. I think, I think speaking the good.

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Angelo Esposito [00:17:30]:

Sometimes we create this gap between provider and receiver, creator and consumer that is like this hidden wall. And it's us and them and do they get it? Are they appreciative? Are they a good client? Are they a nightmare client? And so the first thing we say is just speak the good about yourself, about the clients. The second thing we do is we say honor the people that you're serving. How do you honor someone that you don't really know? Well, you get curious about them, you know, you ask yourself questions about them. Are they paying for this themselves? Or man, what's really cool about their story? Or what is something that I notice about this couple, this client, this person. You know, if you work in an airport, you know, when I travel with my wife and my kids and there's three of us, we are a Tornado of chaos walking down the terminal. And without fail, there is always a single mom with just as many kids just handling it. You know, she's got one kid in the Baby Bjorn, she's pushing another kid in the stroller, and the toddler's pulling their little spider man suitcase behind.

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Angelo Esposito [00:18:35]:

And she's just got all those kids whipped into shape. That is, that is worthy of being acknowledged by the airline attendant. She can notice that. And she can be like, excuse me, ma'am, come up here. Like, I just wanted to, right? So like, when we get curious, that's how we honor someone. So the first thing we speak the good. The second thing, we honor those we serve. How do we honor them? We get curious and then we just apply what we found.

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Angelo Esposito [00:19:02]:

Oh, Angelo seems to really enjoy seafood or whatever. So we honor those we serve. I think the third thing we talk about is earning our customers respect as opposed to expecting respect. I think that, yes, respect is given, but it's also earned. And the fourth thing we talk about is celebrate and improve. You can't thrive in a culture, you can't coach a team where it's just like, improve, improve, improve, improve. If they never feel like, I did it, like, if they never get the atta girl, atta boy, you know, and conversely, you don't actually strive towards.

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Steve Fortunato [00:19:44]:

I love that. It's excellent. Celebrate, improve. Honestly, even on a personal level, it's something that if you don't struggle with.

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Angelo Esposito [00:19:50]:

One thing, we can improve.

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Steve Fortunato [00:19:51]:

Maybe you did as well, I don't know. But I find sometimes entrepreneurs, we say celebrate. You're always kind of like climbing this mountain, and sometimes you forget to kind of like look back, enjoy the view. And it's something that I just started doing like the last two years, but for the longest time, it's like, what can we do? Start a company, raise some cap. It's like you don't have time to breathe. You raise capital. Okay, I got to get more clients. You get a client you want to get, you're excited, but it's like you just keep moving on to the next thing.

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Steve Fortunato [00:20:14]:

And it's. I just want to highlight that one because for our listeners, you know, life's hard, business hard. Take a step back once in a while and just celebrate the wins. Because it's like, it's a never ending game. It's a marathon. So if you don't celebrate the wins, it's like just a really, really tough journey. And it's, it's something personally I've struggled with, gotten better. But I think That's a really cool call out.

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Steve Fortunato [00:21:01]:

Exactly. Exactly.

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Angelo Esposito [00:21:07]:

Thank you. Yeah, it puts wind in. It puts wind in your sails. You know, like, I imagine letting yourself be strapped to a stranger and having this contraption and running off a cliff and like floating thousands of feet above the air. You know, the Angelo of three years ago might have felt like, that's not a good use of time. I should be looking for more clients, I should be writing more content, I should be making more connections.

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Steve Fortunato [00:21:33]:

Yes. No, like, nailed it. You know that. And I want to know a bit more about your journey too. I guess we'll go to Roomforty. Like, I'm curious to know a bit about, like, how that happened. I don't know if you want to start more generally of like, what inspired you to launch Hospitality Collaborative or if you want to jump to Roomforty specifically, but I'd love to know kind.

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Angelo Esposito [00:21:52]:

Of that story, like, what bring us it.

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Steve Fortunato [00:21:54]:

Where did that trans happen? And like, let's talk about it.

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Angelo Esposito [00:21:56]:

So we're not just always climbing gassed, just feeling like there's a whip behind us going like, climb higher, you know?

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Steve Fortunato [00:22:04]:

Yep.

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Angelo Esposito [00:22:24]:

Yeah, yeah, totally. I worked for a fine dining, fine dining restaurant group. I worked for a, which is well known in LA called the Patina Group. And I realized that I wanted to spend the rest of my life doing hospitality. I was going to open a restaurant. I really wanted to have the restaurant feel a lot like Gramercy Tavern in New York. I loved how there's a tavern room that's casual, there's a bar that's got a great cocktail program, and then there's a dining room that has like elevated, multi course, fancy schmancy food. So this is back before pop ups was like, that wasn't a word.

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Angelo Esposito [00:23:04]:

This is back in like 2005, 2006. And so I said, I'm going to open a restaurant. And a friend came and said, well, you should start doing some parties. Start doing some dinner parties and just talking about this restaurant that you're going to open so that you can build a customer base because you're like a front of house guy. You're the maestro, you're a great cook, but you're probably not going to be the chef. So you don't have this like customer following in and of yourself. Begin to create it. So I started throwing these parties and I started, you know, having my buddies that were chefs, all my friends in the restaurant industry, we would throw these dinner parties.

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Angelo Esposito [00:23:36]:

And then I started calling winemakers and saying, hey, I'm going to do this dinner party in this backyard, do you want to come down and pour your wine and maybe bring some sign up slips for people to order wine or become wine club members? And basically, Angelo, things started happening really fast. People were like, why in the hell do you want to open a restaurant? Do you want to open a brick and mortar restaurant in la? LA is like restaurants open and close once a week in la and the real opportunity is to open a catering company. I wish we would have had something like this at my daughter's wedding or at my 40th or at my retirement party. Forget the restaurant. There's a million restaurants in la. Take this fine dining service, food and wine thing and open a restaurant and. Sorry. And open a catering company.

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Angelo Esposito [00:24:26]:

And so that's what I did. I said, okay, forget opening a restaurant. I'm going to open a catering company and I'm going to try to close that gap between the great restaurant experience and the catering format. Because there's a lot of things about catering, man, that are institutionally more challenging. You know, catering servers, you know, catering company has servers that work there full time. Gig based worker economy. So this gap in investment, the client has never been so invested. They're about to spend $40,000 on their wedding or $400,000 or whatever the number is.

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Angelo Esposito [00:25:02]:

They're so invested. That's on the client side, on the delivery side, the front line. The people that are like making good on your promise work for like 20 different catering companies. It's a gig based worker economy. Like they got an address and a call time and they're like, where am I going? Okay, what's the bride's name? Right, so you have this huge gap in investment. Clients never been so invested. Employee has never been less invested. And you've got to somehow close that gap.

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Angelo Esposito [00:25:33]:

And it's hard, but it can be closed. Same thing with food. A lot of times catering chefs are thinking about logistics first and then packing in inspiration. So how do you think about phenomenal composition in terms of dishes? But that can scale that. You can put 200 out now, not like 5, then 5 more, then 5 more for a sum total of 200. How can you ship 200 beautifully composed dishes where the sauce hasn't established that coagulated film across the top because it's been sitting in a transit cabinet. How do you do that? You know, how do you think thoughtfully about how wine and food are actually meant to go together? So you're not just going, would you like red or white with your chicken cordon bleu? Or your filet mignon, your cliche catering food.

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Steve Fortunato [00:26:28]:

Do you know, you nailed it? It's true.

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Angelo Esposito [00:26:30]:

I. I have intentionality and thoughtfulness.

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Steve Fortunato [00:26:32]:

A friend that, funny enough, she's a hospitality tech company to help with the gig economy, specifically for events and exactly what you mentioned, where it's like you're hiring people and, you know, this is a part time thing. They might do once, twice a month, do a wedding and codes. It's a really big gap. You know, even just getting like. I remember she was on me. One of the big challenges and they kind of solved it a bit with tech, but was like making sure they fault. They show up with the right attire. Like just making sure they show up with the, you know, the white shirt and the, and the black pants or whatever it may be, which is, yeah, I guess a challenge in itself.

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Steve Fortunato [00:27:15]:

Right, Right. That's a great. Yeah, I'm clipping that one. That one's gonna be good. It's. That's. That's well said. An Uber driver serving your mom in your house.

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Steve Fortunato [00:27:29]:

That's. That's a great analogy. Yeah, dude. So I'm curious. Like, I mean, first of all, I didn't get the full story, so I apologize. But I'm sure listeners want to know anyways. Tell me a bit about the name.

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Angelo Esposito [00:27:41]:

Into your home and trusting them to serve your mother at your house. Do you know what I mean? You're like, I don't know you. My, My last name is Fortunato. Everybody in the season of time when I opened called me Fort or Forge. And you know, people are always like, where's your favorite restaurant? Where's your favorite place to eat a meal? And I'm always like, my favorite place to eat a meal.

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Steve Fortunato [00:28:26]:

That's cool.

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Angelo Esposito [00:28:26]:

Is in a house, like, just because of like, what, what can happen there? And, and if you can get the level of execution that you get at a restaurant, homes are rad because you can sit there all night, you can get up from the table and go light a fire. Someone can like play a song on the piano. You can open another bottle of wine, you know, So I wanted to be like, Fort's house. Fort's table. Forts. And it. And it was like Roomforty. So the 40 is not 4 0.

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Angelo Esposito [00:28:54]:

The 40 is short for Fortune Auto. So yeah, I opened Roomforty in 2007. Catering companies really established themselves based on relationships with venues and event planners. And so I started working at a lot of venues around Los Angeles. And then I was like, I don't want to just be one of five caterers at this venue, I want to be the only caterer. Well, the only way to do that is open my own venue. And so that's when I opened the Fig House and I stumbled into Grace. I called up a girl named Emily Henderson who was a rising star in the.

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Angelo Esposito [00:29:31]:

The design community and very active on social media. And I was not. Am not very active. So her, you know, my target market, which is in brides, which is brides at the time, knew Emily Henderson, loved Emily Henderson. So she's like posting pictures of like, just picked this wallpaper for the Fig House. And girls were booking the Fig House while there were like tractors in there. You know what I mean? Like, they were like huge.

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Steve Fortunato [00:29:58]:

I'm curious. I know you know you built at least a good chunk of your career advocating for virtuous hospitality. I know that's a term I kept kind of seeing. I'd love to know what does that mean to you and our listeners? How can maybe they apply that five to ten inquiries a week philosophy to.

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Angelo Esposito [00:30:13]:

Their everyday, really nice dinner party or a wedding or a 40th birthday? When we opened the Fig House, it went to like 50 inquiries a week. And yeah, that's it all kind of stemmed from there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Virtuous hospitality is really just understanding how generosity works. Virtuous hospitality is understanding that you give what you need. So if you want to feel valued in your offer the way that you feel, which every human does, the way that you get that value is to give it first to others. Because you can't be giving value and simultaneously trying to get value at the same time. If I told you, Angelo, hold your breath and you held your breath.

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Angelo Esposito [00:31:34]:

And when you run out of breath, what you need most is more air, Right? But what's the first thing you're going to do after you've held your breath? You're going to give the breath that you have. You're going to give it away so that you can get the breath that you need. Virtuous hospitality understands that there's so much that has infiltrated our industry that isn't very hospitable. And it's because we don't actually understand how generosity works. So we're all trying to take while give at the same time. And it doesn't work that way. That's not the ecology. Like, this is not an issue of methodology.

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Angelo Esposito [00:32:13]:

It's not an issue of psychology. It's actually an issue of ecology. The way that it works is you give what you need and you don't Try to do both at the same time. And when we as hosts go, all I'm gonna do right now is make this person feel valued with whatever I have to offer. I'm not going to try to get their acknowledgement that this is the best caramelized scallop they've ever had. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to set my intention on making them feel valued. That's all I want to do in this moment.

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Angelo Esposito [00:32:49]:

What happens is when I put making you feel valued, I can't make you feel anything. But when that. When I square my intention that all I want in this moment is I just want Angelo to feel cared for. The way that the ecology of generosity works is you can't help but return that generosity you like. That's just how generosity works. It's a reflex. It's cause and effect. And so virtuous hospitality says, let's go first.

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Angelo Esposito [00:33:20]:

We can't do both at the same time. You can't breathe in and breathe out at the same time. You can't give air and get air.

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Steve Fortunato [00:33:26]:

I love that because. Yeah, I know you talk about that shift of like, so how do you go from a culture of entitlement to kind of one of generosity, knowing that.

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Angelo Esposito [00:33:33]:

If I do that and that's all I'm doing?

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Steve Fortunato [00:33:36]:

Not easy, not easy. How do you.

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Angelo Esposito [00:33:39]:

I'm going to feel.

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Steve Fortunato [00:33:40]:

Go about maybe because it sounds like you got what I want to set for yourself. How do you go about. It's not that I Stealing that, like, in the business in terms of maybe.

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Angelo Esposito [00:33:48]:

Going, Steve, that was such a special time.

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Steve Fortunato [00:33:49]:

How do you kind of like any strategy that, I guess, mindset, shift of, you know, generosity across your team.

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Angelo Esposito [00:34:07]:

It's not. Yeah, I mean, I talked to you about those four pillars. Those are principles. But all of those principles have practices. And the reason why I highlight that, Angelo, is that I don't believe that we think ourselves into a new way of acting. I think we actually act ourselves into a new way of thinking. I think behavior and, like, actions and practices go first. Obviously, we've got to, like, have some mindset shifts, but so, like, how do we work that into our team? Moment by moment, conversation by conversation, like adopting practices.

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Angelo Esposito [00:35:13]:

So I'll give you an example. I do my weekly one on one with my executive team. So I was having a weekly one on one with my executive chef, who is absolutely a phenomenal leader. He understands coaching. He understands that you coach different people differently. He understands timelines and not just so packing what everybody needs to work on that. They're flooded. Like, he totally gets it.

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Angelo Esposito [00:35:41]:

Great leader. And he was saying, he said, and I don't even think he caught himself saying it. He said, I don't think I'm doing a good job yet because I've got, like, a lot that I'm trying to, you know, really get solidified here for 2025. But I think the team is doing a great job. And I just jumped in and I said, hold on. You just said, I don't think I'm doing a great job because there's a lot more to get solidified for 2025. Did you notice that? You said that? And he's like, yeah. And I said, okay.

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Angelo Esposito [00:36:16]:

So I wonder two things. Number one, can there be a lot that you have to get solidified for 2025 while you were doing a great job? And number two, I am wondering if you're burning a lot of energy being ruthless to yourself and then like establishing a filter so that ruthlessness doesn't come through to your team. I watch you lead your team. You are really kind. You celebrate them and you push them to improve. I wonder if you're just grinding yourself mentally. And he's like, I am. I totally, I totally am.

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Angelo Esposito [00:36:54]:

He's like, I just think that that's been so ingrained in me as to how you pursue excellence is just like, it's never good enough. You're like, sort of that Bill Belichick, just do your job. You know what I mean? Just like, he's like, I totally berate myself because I want to grow. And so I said, okay, you're not a dad, but you are an uncle. Picture your six year old niece learning how to ride a bike as she's like, riding and there's all these different distractions and she puts her foot down. Are you berating her and being like, you're an idiot? Like, no. You're like jumping up and down, going like you're doing it. Oh, my God.

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Angelo Esposito [00:37:37]:

I said, that's how long term growth happens. We can talk about accomplishment, but accomplishment and growth are two different things. So all of that to say, I told him, every single time you affirm one of your team members, I want you to under your breath, speak these words, you're doing a good job. Hey, you're doing a good job. Hey, I see you. You're a good leader, you're a great chef, you're a good coach. And I was like, say it out loud. Because our brains are filled with all.

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Steve Fortunato [00:38:04]:

These thoughts and I'm a Big believer in that too, about the brain with.

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Angelo Esposito [00:38:09]:

The 10,000 concept of feeling.

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Steve Fortunato [00:38:12]:

And it's specifically top of mind because of like, something I've been reading from.

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Angelo Esposito [00:38:16]:

But if. I tell you if I'm.

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Steve Fortunato [00:38:18]:

But anyways. But it's literally about that. It's about three. And you really got to imagine like the end state and this whole idea, but, like, you nailed it. It's like if you don't speak it, I start. If you don't feel it different about.

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Angelo Esposito [00:38:32]:

My own leadership, it won't happen.

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Steve Fortunato [00:38:33]:

And even the idea of like makes sense. And we kind of talked about it at the beginning, but it's like you're climbing this mountain, but once in a while look back and I think right there I, I saw that kind of same thing that, that your, your chef was being hard on himself and not once in a while taking a look back and like, man, 2024 was a hell of a year. Like, for sure, we still got more to climb. 2025 is up there. But like, wow, look at the view from up here. So I think it goes full circle of like, yeah, once in a while, like, yeah, there's. You're never going to stop growing. And this was something that, that, that hit me and share.

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Steve Fortunato [00:39:03]:

I'll share real quick. But I realized one day on the software side, it's like, the work will never end. And what made me like, it just one day just hit me. And it's so obvious now, but I'm just like, does Google stop developing? Does Apple stop? Like, it'll never end. So once you realize, oh, wait, this will never end. There's no end game. It just then you realize, okay, I should celebrate my wins. Because it's just, yeah, I.

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Steve Fortunato [00:39:26]:

But like, this thing will go on forever. So it's just like you end up realizing, okay, I get it now. This is just a marathon. And it's like, if you're not enjoying the marathon or the journey, you're just going to burn out. So it's like at some point you got to start realizing, oh, wait, the journey is the fun part. And if. And there is no end goal, there are, of course, ambitions. Ambitions you want to hit.

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Steve Fortunato [00:39:46]:

But once you hit it, the goal post moves and the goalpost moves and the goalpost moves. And once you realize that, you're just like, okay, let me enjoy the, the growth or let me enjoy the journey, you know? Yeah.

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Angelo Esposito [00:40:26]:

Absolutely. I think that, you know, just as you're talking, I think in communities where achievement and excellence is one of the highest values, I think that we have mistakenly said, enjoyment, celebration, acknowledgement of progress, all of that equals mediocrity. All of that means we're settling. We're not as excellent, we're complacent, we're lazy, we've done flawed math. You know, like, because I have worked in those environments where there is an unquenchable pursuit of ascension, whether it is a Michelin star or right up from food critic or whatever, but it is like it does. The climb is never over. And I think that we have mistakenly said, if that is the culture in which you exist, then you do not look behind you and go, hey, look at how far we've gotten. Or you do not pause and take them.

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Angelo Esposito [00:41:34]:

All of that equals mediocrity and complacency, and I fundamentally disagree. I actually believe all of that equals wind in your sails, to sail the long journey. All of that.

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Steve Fortunato [00:41:46]:

No, you nailed it. You nailed it. I love that. That's a great analogy. So I'd love to know, you know, as we kind of wrap up. This is great, by the way. Super cool, Great perspective. A guest that's really on the catering.

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Angelo Esposito [00:41:58]:

Side.

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Steve Fortunato [00:42:00]:

But definitely different challenges like you mentioned. I love that uber analogy. But I'd love to know for you, kind of, what's next? Number one, what's next for you for. For Roomforty for the pig house? What's coming up? Anything you could share or want to share, I just want to give you the floor. It.

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Angelo Esposito [00:42:48]:

Yeah. Thank you. You know, I think. Okay, what is the word that defines your role after you say podcast? You are a podcast host, right? So I think. I think what is next? As I've. I've written this book that is basically talking about the role that that host mindset and that hospitality plays in our interactions, and all of them that transcends industry. No matter what industry you are in, hosting is not confined to an industry or even the content of what you're offering. Like, right now, you are offering a space for a conversation.

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Angelo Esposito [00:43:40]:

Like, you are a host. You are like, and I am your guest. That space applies universally to all of us. The host is just someone who's prepared something and is offering it to someone else. And so I think what is next is talking about what happens when we enter that space, that hosting space, with that virtuous cycle in mind. What happens when we. When we understand how generosity works. Of course I want to get value out of this interaction.

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Angelo Esposito [00:44:16]:

Of course I want to feel valued. Oh. The way that I get that is to give what I need. Okay. So I'm going to think like a host. I'm an architect. This is my client. They've paid me $30,000 to design their home.

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Angelo Esposito [00:44:31]:

But instead of presenting them the designs and hoping that they acknowledge how talented I am, I want to present these designs in this moment in a way that makes these homeowners feel really taken care of, really valued. Like, you matter. We're building your forever home. Did we get like, did we get it? Like, that's. That is the opportunity that a host mindset and understanding what hospitality really is, which is just making people feel valued with what you're offering, by what you're sharing. And you could be sharing the other half of your burrito, you could be sharing molecular gastronomy, you could be sharing designs that you've created, a coffee that you prepared, an annual syllabus for training. It doesn't matter when we present whatever it is that we're offering and our intention is, I want, I want you to feel valued because we can't. I can't.

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Angelo Esposito [00:45:32]:

I can't extract and create value at the same time. And I want to extract. Like, I got to be honest about that. I really want you to like this design and sign on the dotted line. Like, I want to get something out of this, but I understand. Oh, the way that I get it is to go all in on giving it. All right, so I'm gonna, like, stick the landing on giving what I need because I understand the ecology of generosity. I understand.

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Angelo Esposito [00:46:01]:

I can't get a breath and take a breath at the same time. That's what's next, man. Is just talking about those themes and sharing. You know, this is my 35th year in the hospitality industry, and it took me five years to write down all those words that I put in that book. And I think what I'm really excited about is finding opportunities to share some of the things that I've learned and that I've discovered. Because this framework that I've created, I didn't go up on a mountain and get a download. I was living it. I was trying to do two things at the same time.

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Angelo Esposito [00:46:38]:

I was in a business of trying to make people feel valued. But I was in la and I wanted my business to be the cutting edge business. Like, I wanted to feel valued. And that's when I was like, oh, you can't give value and get value at the same time. And when I. When that hit me, Angelo, it was just like, then I did get a download. I was like, oh, my God, this is everywhere in the hospitality industry. We are all trying to take value while we're giving value and calling it hospitality.

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Angelo Esposito [00:47:10]:

But really we want like affirmation. It's a culture of demonstration, not of invitation. And when I realized, when I saw it in me, then I saw it in my industry and then I just saw it everywhere, I was like, oh, so many interactions are shaped by how we show up.

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Steve Fortunato [00:47:32]:

That's awesome.

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Angelo Esposito [00:47:33]:

And if I show up in this conversation, and I really love that, I love that.

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Steve Fortunato [00:47:35]:

And then last but not least, I always like to wrap up with just any kind of plug. So for people, obviously we're going to put links in the podcast, the episode and all that, but people just listening in, where could they find you, your website, anything you want to plug, Just.

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Angelo Esposito [00:47:50]:

Go ahead and do all sorts of fun things and fun spaces. That's the operating company side. What I am looking to do is share more, have more of these conversations with teams, with leaders. Yeah. Well, if the conversation was at all compelling, I would love for you to have a long form version of a conversations. So I would go to Amazon and I'd love to share the book with you. It's called the Urgent Recovery of Hospitality. I think that would be my, my biggest hope is that if there's resonance, you start there and if, if you read the book and you like what.

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Steve Fortunato [00:48:47]:

You're reading and you wanted to put the link down, I love that, you know, we're doing. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for a great episode. That was really, really cool. Thank you for taking the time to share a lot of your knowledge. You're learning experience experiences, I mean manifest. That's why I do what I do. Like I'm just passionate about helping space.

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Angelo Esposito [00:49:04]:

And host your people.

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Steve Fortunato [00:49:05]:

Big list of restaurant operators listen in and I think it's cool to.

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Angelo Esposito [00:49:11]:

Those are our operating Steve.

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Steve Fortunato [00:49:12]:

With that said, thank you for joining the WISKing It All podcast. We'll include all these links, but it was a really, really, really fun episode. So thanks for your time. My pleasure. If you want to learn more about WISK, head to WISK AI and book a demo.

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Angelo Esposito [00:49:50]:

Thank you. Thanks, Angelo. Really appreciate our time together. Thanks for having me.

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